Dialogue Description:

The waves of feminism have opened the door to a contemporary dialogue of what it means to simultaneously challenge patriarchy, heterosexism, racism, and other forms of oppression. From call-outs of “white feminism” to growing awareness of intersectionality, how can we hold these conversations in a way that invites intergenerational perspectives? How can we engage feminism in a way that honors the struggles that got us where we are today but also acknowledges the disagreements that surround who should be centered in feminism and who is excluded? How do we bring in discussions of class, capitalism, corporatizing, online activism, and shifting relationships to gender and language?

This dialogue is being created through an intergenerational exchange, and thus we hope to attract a variety of ages and viewpoints. We know that everyone has different relationships to feminism, and that even generationally, these relationships are not monolithic, so our hope is that there will be both inter- and intra-generational discussion.

Suggested readings:

• Feminism, Generation and Intersectionality: Generational Differences within Feminism are Opportunities for Dialogue by Alison Winch

• Herstory: The Origins and Continued Relevancy of Black Feminist Thought in the United States by Cherise Charleswell

• What’s in a Word?  by Andi Marquette

• Black Woman, White Movement: Why Black Women are Leaving the Feminist Movement by Georgina Class-Peters

Dialogue Notes:

These are rough, uncut, unfiltered, and anonymous notes taken at the dialogue. We get that these may not be very readable to those who were not in attendance at the dialogue, and, honestly, sometimes even to those of us who were. We still feel it is important to keep them available as part of our accountability process and for archiving and reference purposes.  Some of these notes have been digested/transformed into blogs.

Check-in

• • Researching topic was good process for me, excited to center inter generational issues
  • As older generation, took awhile before I really understood and felt able to use and connect to language being used by younger generation and gender fluidity
  • Feel anguish looking back at my own involvements in 70s feminism, ways I felt liberated and was able to open to new possibilities from what I was taught, but now see ways I was complicit/contributed to racism/heterosexism

 

• Feels nourishing to make space for these conversations, mom was a 2nd wave feminist, want to feel connected to lineage of feminism, but barriers around transphobia and other exclusionary practices

 

• • Uncomfortable with ways we dismiss previous generations of movements, not as dismissive as other former movements that were having similar and other blind spots
  • Thinking about Hillary, feeling deep confusion about what she represents
  • Interested in conversations about feminism and racial justice
  • Curious about legacies of people who came before, whose shoulders I stand on, and looking in the mirror

 

• At Future of Solidarity event, was floored by how many hands when up when speaker asked who was socialized as white and has been organizing for decades – feeling so disconnected from those stories

 

• • Importance of lineage, recognizing I didn’t have that lineage in my family, feeling my radicalization occurred in the present, not explicit where the lineage of our current political moment is
  • Sadness around not having a lot of strong relationships with elders, thinking about ways older generations are silenced – complexity of that
  • Glad to talk about feminism – hard to find places where it’s being discussed, looking back on ways the feminist movement put words to experiences I was having, was through feminism and through id as woman, gave me greater understanding of oppression
  • Saw ways that radical white women left movement spaces that marginalized them, was really class/Marxism that informed my movement experiences
  • Curios what folks think about – seeing so much difference in the ways people describe themselves, not sure how “women” rise when no longer identifying that way – what that means now
  • Mom ran shelter for battered women – saw feminism as safety, feel confused now in this age of neoliberal feminism, especially when recognizing ways I benefit from it, hard time integrating how to reconcile the movements, ways it was co-opted, was insufficient, helped some
  • Looking at ways Hillary feels momentous to some, want to look critically at the ways she reinforces state power/system

 

• Pain and anguish in reading article about Black feminism, not knowing where to start, wanting to integrate trans struggles, queer struggles

 

• Didn’t want to engage with feminism to begin with, but then started looking through filter of patriarchy
• How the word feminism disappeared, frustrated with all of the language, ambivalent experience of language – seems to create carefulness, looking at ways ideas get recycled and redefined gets us out of “truth of now”
• A lot of folks I admire and look up to are folks of color, want to also be in space with other white folks, looking for political home
• Older generations of strong women in my family can’t understand how I don’t support Hillary, never had awareness of feminism in my radicalization – more aware of racial justice and indigenous struggles

Discussion

• Is there a way to look at feminism without holding it within structures of capitalism?
• What do we think about the definition of feminism? Is Hillary a feminist? Can feminism be neoliberal? Feminism has struggled to be inclusive.
• Sexism hasn’t come up yet – impossible for me to separate feminism from sexism, how is sexism operating in a particular situation, can it be used and broadened?
• Quote on facebook – It’s Black and Brown women who pick up the pieces when White women shatter glass ceilings – this is true, is it still worth celebrating her accomplishment, do the accomplishments of white women also support accomplishments of WOC?
• Language allows us to name reality
• Obama elected and people talked about “post-racism” now Hillary represents “post-sexism”
• Ways identities are being marketed, most young white female students at this one school didn’t believe sexism exists – then looking at media woke the up and disturbed them, ways people are convinced they don’t experience sexism – looking at the ways it shapeshifts
• Sexism is like white supremacy – keeps changing in response to ways we work against it
• Feminism has been co-opted and used to create intergenrational conflict and suspicion
• Beyonce using Chimananda quote about feminism – confusing to look at and hard not to internalize the sexism that has been created within context of sexualization of women – mixed messages
• Wary of tendency to look for universal truth
• Picking up thread of feminism and capitalism, yearning for liberation in some way, can mean a lot to different people. Concerned about ecological crisis, missing piece about what it means to survive if our ideas of empowerment are based on gaining power in extractive economies
• Learning language can be important – decolonial & intergenerational trauma– implications and challenges – how to confront legacies
• Liberation within feminist movements – them feminism becomes colonial
• Want to identify as feminist, but feel the need to qualify it – can’t assume anti-capitalist stance, articulation of something feminist (anti-sexist)
• When was feminism born – how can we distinguish between birth of mainstream narratives of feminism vs struggles that weren’t identified as feminism but were struggling for liberation against patriarchy
• Gender oppression tied into creation of nuclear family and economic systems
• Whiteness universalizes
• Historical piece – looking at own history as Jew, very patriarchal religion. Learned about how context was different
• Ways we justify marginalization in our movements, excuse it as a means to an end
• Benefit from models of previous waves, we were bra-burning and curious if you feel patriarchy the same way – question from older genreation, does younger generation feel sexism?
  • “What does it mean to say “I’m getting tired of cis-men” “I’m tired of a second/fraction of sexism.” “I’m done with you, I’m not cooking for you, I’m not into any part of the program.” Lesbianism was both natural to me, but also a choice to choose another way of being.
  • Had to wear a dress, forced to do socially constructed things, had to sneak out of town to have a baby if you got pregnant, weren’t options until women’s liberation movements came about
  • Even a step back and women were thrown into lunatic asylums
  • Yes, still feel sexism, different
  • Appreciate when Kamau Bell says “It’s like when someone says it’s just a little racist” is like saying there’s just a little shit in your milkshake
  • Dividing genders/generations is a way to pit us against each other
  • I don’t have to wear a dress, but still seen as outside
  • Systems morph
  • Still not in power
  • Still defined by and threatened with violence if we push against gender norms
  • Sexualization of the female body, standards of beauty. Pulled between women “women can sell their body” “women can only sell their body” –
  • Experience of eating disorder – viewing it politically, held against standards of beauty
  • Control of women’s bodies – most effective way to control someone is to get them to control themselves
  • Thinking about how much each generation is making advances to change conditions of women – was raised with expectations of education, felt like i was drowning in self-hatred, internalized lack of self-worth, always apologizing, humiliating to get award for intelligence, felt unlovable (not princess/cute or witch/sexy) – hard to give language to these experiences, metaphor of needing to bleed out poison
• Patriarchy is insidious – looking at ways women of color talk about ways they had to struggle with sexism to support racial justice struggles and counter violence against Black men/men of color
• Identify as feminist, see radical models, and thinking about personal vs collective liberation, interaction with marginality
• Instead of “trickle down” liberation – “trickle up” liberation. Wary of this idea of progress. Don’t want to feel alone in history. Find anti-racist feminist role models
• Looking at ways our movements spaces are largely absent of cis-white men, and we are still replicating patriarchy within our movement spaces. Refreshing not to deal with men, esp in thinking of collective liberation, but we take on domination and power internally
• Intense intersectionality, lifting up most marginalized voices, how are we articulating this. What is liberatory form of anti-racism, anti-transism.
• Trauma often leads to tunnel vision, aren’t see oppression outside of our own. How do we forgive the struggles of those who had to struggle against their own oppression to get to a place where they could see other oppressions. AND hold the need to center the most marginalized.
• Trial of Brock Turner, Stanford rapist.. looking at ways criminalization is destructive, and you are doing criminal things because you are so sick from patriarchy, no conversations about systemic healing, feminism is having control of our bodies. But not sure criminalization is the pathway. Similar to conversations in gay/queer communities about hate crimes legislation. How can our feminism hold these intersections and dilemmas? What does justice look like? Jezebel put out a piece putting the verdict in context – 90% more than most rapists get. Wanting magnitude of crime acknowledged, but not quantified in years sentenced.
• How can our feminist movement embody liberation and decriminalization – give those most affected the voice to make the choice. What do you need?  
• It has been an evolution of feminism – movement has been increasingly raising narratives of not using criminalization system as a path of liberation
• INCITE, Bay Area Transformative Justice, Revolution starts at home – all are lineages of feminism
• Raising narratives within movements – fear of bringing things up weakening larger goals of movements – can mainstream handle complicated narratives?
• Can’t avoid cis straight white men, need to bring them in, desire for being good white person leads to being exclusionary, need courage and humility to do daily education
• RJ models.. take form of circle, our systems of justice are from england, never starts with who has been harmed and what is needed to make them whole? Logic of system is about guilt and punishment, rather than healing harm. Erases possibility of being a better human.
• Is there anything essentialist about being female? Or is that all socialized?
  • Biological determinism.. Biology, astrology, socialization can be hugely informative..
  • Systemically linked, capitalist
  • Reproduction is perhaps the only thing essential, ways different bodies can be exploited is essential, perhaps everything else is socialized
• Discussion of feminism of color and modern movements/struggles
  • Colorism and being held to white standards of beauty
  • Bind of being torn between struggles of intersectionality – how to fight against sexism without contributing to racism
  • Pushing against desire for white feminism to discuss gender without discussing race/class/etc
  • Challenges of dealing with white females and white feminists who can be so aware of fighting against some struggles without “seeing” other struggles (resource extraction, racism, etc)
• Turning 40, new waves of patriarchal messages
• Voices I’m hearing – complicated – like when gay marriage was won, first thought was of gay marriage, felt like i betrayed them when first thought was of trans women of color – how to be grateful for who I am when it doesn’t feel like enough
• Overwhelming to think about how we need to tear every structure down in our lives – don’t know where to go next.
• Astounding to hear that folks 30 years ago lived in a different world. Feel like we can’t move from here, and we will move from here.
• Talking to 80 year old woman, talking about her memory of husband as a “good boss”
• Think where would I have been within movement spaces in the 60’s – sweetness of thinking about dialogue spaces as part of lineage – we are all disposable, not alone – consciousness training circles
• Every system is meant to take us out of relationship.
• Holding each other in community and hurtful to pretend some don’t exist (ie white men as disposable in previous waves of feminism – )
• How do you be tough on people and celebrate what they are doing right – scary and incredible and invigorating to recognize race as about me, same opportunity for men, as oppressor it is also about you
• Patriarchy is profoundly damaging to cis-men, material benefits certainly, damage to soul, imagine a different future in which there wasn’t a tradeoff
• Also want to respect spaces for healing in affinity groups
• Liberations are bound together
• Discussion with Nana about whether she identified as white – when she came to country, she knew deeply that civil rights movement was right, but was afraid of persecution and just wanted to assimilate

Takeaways

• Need to read more about histories of feminist movements
• Language – can create access/redefining/reclaiming as well as barriers
• Thinking back to Civil Rights/SNCC/Ella Baker – organizing enormous numbers of women, no one was dispensable, we have a lot to learn from (models/practice), in the death-throws of capitalism, not a fun time to be around, it’s overwhelming and going to get more overwhelming, look at ways to build unity – “Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief…” – Talmud
• Gratitude for the space, how rare honest and vulnerable intergenerational spaces are in my life – usually more posturing and closed
• What would it be like to just talk about our personal experiences of patriarchy, feel like I’m on a new journey, experiences of not pushing validation away
• Beyonce – how easy it is in academic circles for not getting it perfect, how do we appreciate “really great to a limited degree” – sometimes throw people out with their limitations, curious about other figures we are ambivalent about
• Trauma.. hurt people hurt people, healed people heal people, dehumanizing tools/labels
• Feeling optimism,  unexpected, that there are ways to move forward and heal deep dark histories of my feminism
• Continuation of conversations about trans-feminism exclusion in spaces, language, what’s under words, want to explore that
• Trans-feminine exclusion in eco-spaces, relationships to earth, empire has just one trick – divide and conquer.. living into intertwined liberation
• Grateful, humbled.. Appreciating healthy discussions about capitalism